S7. E6: Casey Dworkin: Apple Leather Boots
“When you talk to the vegan community, you know, it's people who know exactly why they should or shouldn't purchase something. But being able to reach people through design… like why couldn't someone test veganism through fashion before they started with their diet? That's kind of my story.”
- Casey Dworkin
Casey Dworkin is the founder and designer of plant-based luxury footwear brand Sylven NY.
When I first discovered Casey's boots and shoes, they were half vegan and half animal leather, meaning half their shoes were made from animal leather and then the exact same pairs were available in apple leather.
A couple of years after that, I noticed that all the animal leather shoes and boots were gone, Sylven was now a straight vegan brand. Not only did I want to know what happened and how it happened, but I also really love Sylvan's boots. So I called Casey and asked her to share her story.
“For me, it started with vegan for the environment… I was already working with these plant-based, vegan leathers and wanting to make sure I can lessen my environmental impact through my shoe production. And so I was like, well, why don't I try to reduce the amount of meat and dairy that I consume?
And then through that process, I was like, well, why am I consuming any meat or dairy? Why am I producing with anything leather? And, it brought me down this very positive rabbit hole.” – Casey Dworkin
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Transcript:
Casey: [00:00:15] When you talk to the vegan community, it's people who know exactly why they should or shouldn't purchase something, right? But being able to reach people through design like I want to be the brand, why couldn't someone test veganism through fashion before they start it with their diet? That's kind of my story.
Elizabeth: [00:00:41] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz, this is Species Unite. We have a favor to ask if you like today's episode and you have a spare minute, could you please rate and review Species Unite on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts? It really helps people to find the show. This conversation is with Casey Dworkin. Casey is the founder and designer of plant based luxury footwear brand Sylven New York. When I first discovered Casey's boots and shoes, they were half vegan and half animal leather. Then a couple of years after that, all the animal leather was gone. They were a straight vegan brand. Not only did I want to know what happened and how that happened, but I also really love Sylven’s Boots. Casey, thank you so much for being here at my house in person.
Casey: [00:01:51] It is so awesome to be somewhere recording as opposed to sitting on Zoom. So super happy to be here.
Elizabeth: [00:01:58] We're going to start with the reason I like desperately seeking you out and looking you up because I love vegan shoes. I love vegan boots. It is kind of an obsession. When I first went vegan, which is like six, seven years ago, I was one of those. I don't think many people do this and they shouldn't, but I literally threw all my shoes and boots and coats. I gave them away and got rid of them and had no shoes. I had some running shoes and I didn't know where to start, even though that's only six, seven years ago.
Casey: [00:02:32] I mean, six or seven years in the vegan material space is like a lifetime already.
Elizabeth: [00:02:36] I bought some cheap, probably plastic vegan boots just to like, hold me over until I could figure out the space. Someone immediately, like the next day of my first day wearing them, I was walking with someone in the city. She was like, “God, they are hideous”. I was like, They're vegan.
Casey: [00:02:52] That's a good friend, though.
Elizabeth: [00:02:53] Yes, and they were. They were really ugly. But I didn't know and especially then. But in a lot of ways it's still really hard to find variety, quality, comfort, selection like I do. I really work on finding good vegan boots and yours are some of my favorites. Can you just kind of give the history of Sylvia in New York and how it all started?
Casey: [00:03:20] Totally. So I started Sylvan in 2017, originally as a sustainable line, so I'm born on Earth Day. Sustainability has been something I've been championing since I was really little, so I knew I was going to start a brand that was super sustainable and right out the gate. I started looking at vegan material options and there was nothing that made sense for me in terms of my sustainable criteria. Even four years ago, you're looking at vegan leathers and they're like the standard plastic based PVC pu polyurethane. I just didn't feel comfortable making high end boots out of plastic. So I continue to do research and launch a leather brand and talk about sustainable leather tanning and vegetable tanned leathers. I've always been really material focused, but I kind of kept searching for vegan materials because it was something I knew I wanted to do, but just didn't want to do it until I felt like I was going to do it successfully. In 2019, I finally had my ear to the ground. I started to hear little rumors of people talking about plant based vegan leathers, and all of a sudden I heard things about Apple Leather. Pineapple leather was kind of one of the first plant based leathers to come up and be viable for use. I started looking into pineapple. I started trying to see if I could get my hands on apple leather. In 2019, when I finally found the supplier, my manufactures are in Italy. I went, I visited my factory and my head of production there was like, “We have to go to this Apple leather factory. It's like forty five minutes north of us”. So we got in the car. I literally landed at the airport. I got in a car, drove forty five minutes to see Apple Leather in person for the first time. I was like, “This is it, I want to use it”. So at that point I was still making leather styles and I really wanted to test vegan leather and decided I was going to do like a 50- 50 split across my collection. The way my design process works is like I create a style and then I decide what it's going to be made out of. So I had this beautiful boot design. It's called the Almasi.
Elizabeth: [00:05:20] I have them.
Casey: [00:05:22] You know it. I was really excited to use that as one of my first boots to test with Apple Leather. But I did it in multiple colorways, so I did two vegetable tanned leather options and two vegan leather options. So I offered the same style and then let the customer decide if they wanted to try a vegan material or a leather material.
Elizabeth: [00:05:40] And they were the same price, right?
Casey: [00:05:43] They were the same price, but it was really an awesome way to test it. So it's my first time working with vegan leathers. Specifically, I was one of the first U.S. brands to even work with Apple Leather for footwear. So it was incredibly new, and I had all of these questions about how it wears, how durable it is? How does it look? I was literally putting it up on my website right next to a really high end Italian leather boot. It really needed to make sure it looked identical in terms of quality and if you're selling a pair of boots that are made in a luxury factory, they have to be made with luxury materials. So when I was able to source Apple Leather and make half of my collection vegan, it was kind of my first foray into saying like, OK, I know I want this. My customer has told me she wants it, but now she has to prove that to me, right? I have to really see that people are coming to me. They're wanting vegan leather. At that point, my whole customer base wasn't vegan because I hadn't offered anything vegan until then, so it was a really great way to test it. So that was about two years ago.
Elizabeth: [00:06:41] When you had both leather and vegan on the website. What sold more?
Casey: [00:06:47] They were almost 50-50.
Elizabeth: [00:06:49] And you didn't have a vegan client base at all?
Casey: [00:06:51] No, I had a sustainable client base and there's a lot of overlap, but even I talk a lot about veganism and sustainability. They're in the same Venn diagram, but they're in separate categories.
Elizabeth: [00:7:00] Right.
Casey: [00:07:04] And that's OK. But there is a lot of overlap.
Elizabeth: [00:7:05] Sure.
Casey: [00:07:07] But just because something's vegan doesn't make it sustainable and vice versa. My core sustainable customer had been asking me a little bit about vegan options, so I had a need for it. But a lot of my customers were interested in testing new things.
Elizabeth: [00:07:20] OK, so you go to this Apple leather factory? I always tell people like, if I'm wearing your white boots and I say, “Oh, they're vegan”, I feel like it's part of my job. I love it when I say they're vegan and non vegans are like, “really? Because they're very cool.” Then I say, “Oh, they're made of apples, right?” But I don't really know what I'm talking about when I say that. Will you explain what Apple Leather is, how this all works?
Casey: [00:07:44] Absolutely. So Apple Leather is exactly what it sounds like. It's a vegan leather that is made from organic apples. So there's a region in northern Italy and Tyrol, which is sort of like the Italian Alps, and they are the largest producer of edible apple products, juices, jams, and there's a ton of food waste that's left over from that process. So they take the leftover core, skins, seeds, the items that would otherwise sit in landfill and even though it's organic waste, organic waste is actually a huge contributor of greenhouse gas emissions.
Elizabeth: [00:08:20] I just learned about pumpkins.
Casey: [00:08:22] Oh, it's crazy. I think it's like eight percent of the world's greenhouse gasses come from food waste.
Elizabeth: [00:08:27] Wow.
Casey: [00:08:28] So, we're taking that leftover food waste out of Italy from the apples and it gets dehydrated. So the bulk of it, it's a powder. So it gets dehydrated, turned into a powder and then the powder gets bound to a fabric. There are still some synthetics involved, so it's kind of a combination. There could be a little polyester in the backing. There could be some cotton, and they're working towards making it more and more biodegradable with each season. I've already seen a huge increase in that, just in the last few years. But then it gets down to the fabric, which gives it structure, specifically for footwear. I mean, it's got to support the whole weight of your body in motion repeatedly. There are really strict regulations in place for making a material viable for footwear, whereas you might be able to have something a little bit more organic and have kind of more biodegradable and compostable. If you were making, say, like a bag or a watch band or something that doesn't have the same wear and tear.
Elizabeth: [00:09:26] Yeah, because shoes, I mean shoes in New York.
Casey: [00:09:28] That's the thing. As a New York designer, too, it's like, durability is and longevity is such a pillar of sustainability that I truly believe in. It's so tough. I mean, we're really hard on our feet here in New York. You're walking everywhere. The weather's crazy. It's important that the material not only look good, but it be well-made and hold up.
Elizabeth: [00:09:47] So you get inside this factory. What is it like there?
Casey: [00:09:51] Every component of a shoe is made separately. So like my shoe factory is, if you think of them, they're almost like the final assembly place in Italy, where we already, the material gets made in its own factory. They make the Apple leather in sheets, which is also great because you get to use less waste because when you're talking about an animal it's like, it's very crude to talk about in that way, but I mean, it's literally skins. You talk about it in terms of, we have one animal skin that you're using to place a pattern on. If you've got a really tall boot, you could be using multiple skins. There's parts of the skin that have defects, so they're not usable. So there's also a lot of waste associated with animal skin that doesn't get talked about. We've just all become so desensitized to leather use in fashion that like, it's crazy that we've all been calling it skins.
Elizabeth: [00:10:40] We still don't think of it as skin.
Casey: [00:10:41] Exactly exactly. It's like the fact that we're as desensitized culturally and societally to animal use in products is baffling. The more I am full steam ahead in the vegan space, the more I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I've been inside of a leather tannery”, and just seen, you know, stacks and stacks. It's visceral.
Elizabeth: [00:11:03] When you're using animal skin for leather. I mean, the tanning process and the chemical treatments, and especially with the tanneries in India and where you have kids in there who are breathing horrific chemicals, the reason they do that right is so, so that it doesn't break down.
Casey: [00:11:20] Exactly.
Elizabeth: [00:11:23] Yeah, it's somebody's skin. So with apples, you have to do something to keep them from breaking down.
Casey: [00:11:26] That's partly the synthetics that are added as well. So there is still some polyurethane. It's not a perfect product by any means, and it's getting more and more.
Elizabeth: [00:11:34] It's OK. It doesn't have to be. It's perfect.
Casey: [00:11:36] But I feel like, I also feel like it's really important not to greenwash, right? We hear all these people, it's so great to be like, Yeah, I don't use leather now, I use apples. Though there are some downsides, and I think it's important that when people make decisions for themselves on what they want to purchase, where they want to place, we spend our money on our values these days, right? It's important to have all the information at hand. I think it's important to talk about Apple Leather as a still a work in progress like a whole space is a work in progress.
Elizabeth: [00:12:04] Oh yeah. I mean, a lot of plants and future food and materials, they sell stuff as well. It's all just it's all brand new for the most part.
Casey: [00:12:17] Brand brand new.
Elizabeth: [00:12:18] When I hear a lot of the pushback on it, just like give us a break, you know, it's just starting, this is the beginning. These are versions one, two and three. It's going to be a while before, and it may never be perfect, but it's certainly a hell of a lot better.
Casey: [00:12:32] Definitely. That's something I like to be able to speak from, like a really logical standpoint. So I was working with leathers in the past when I was working with vegetable tanned leather. So we talk about the leather industry at large and we talk a lot about these terrible tanning practices that are happening in places like Bangladesh and places that aren't quite as regulated as the European Union. So when I was working with leather, the tanneries were similarly within the same region as my factory, so everything's local. But of the leather that's made only 10 percent of it is vegetable tanned, right? So 90 percent of leather is being treated with chemicals and chrome and things that prevent it from breaking down. So a lot of people use the leather as biodegradable, and we worked with a lot of leathers that would biodegrade. Some of them could still take 60 to 100 years to biodegrade if they are vegetable tanned.
Elizabeth: [00:13:25] Sure.
Casey: [00:13:26] But the majority of leathers are treated to never break down. So even though people argue it's a natural product, it's not.
Elizabeth: [00:13:29] It's still going to be there.
Casey: [00:13:30] Still going to be there. Yeah, I mean, it might not be there quite as long as plastic, but it'll give it a little bit of run for its money.
Elizabeth: [00:13:36] I mean, I just don't know anything about actually making shoes. So I'm going to ask you some daft questions, but your boots, and this is something that comes up a lot in my quest for vegan shoes and boots. A lot aren't very comfortable, and I think it's probably because the material is hard or. But they're just not. How do you know how to make them comfortable? Like how does that work?
Casey: [00:13:58] Well, I think a lot of it also stems from working with factories that have been making luxury footwear, you know, since they've been in existence. So a lot of it comes down to who you are, who you're partnering with, what and how you lead the conversation as a designer. There's a lot of brands that are mass produced. They're not necessarily caring that you're going to want to wear their shoes time and time again. They just want to create something trendy. You're going to pop it on once a month, however you style it. But I see what I'm making as their investment pieces or staple pieces. I want them to be worn time and time again, like one of the things that I never want to hear someone say is like, “Oh, I can't wait to take these off at the end of the day.” So that goes into the design process. How high do I make my heels? How narrow do I make the toe? Everything is created with that sense of like, this is going to be on your foot all day, you should be comfortable with it on.
Elizabeth: [00:14:52] I have worn your shoes all day, many times in New York, walking many miles and they're amazing and they’re heels and big heels. I'm good in heels, but no. But in many other shoes, I would have been in agony a lot of those times.
Casey: [00:15:09] Yeah.
Elizabeth: [00:15:10] But I wasn't, and weirdly, even though they're three inches, they don't feel like it.
Casey: [00:15:12] It's a pitch. One of the shoe terms, the angle that your foot sits at is called the pitch. And if you think of a Louboutin right where you see these women walking on their toes. It's a really high pitch. So one of the things I like to make sure is, the higher the pitch is, the more emphasis there is on the ball of your foot. So I'm trying to think about how do you distribute the weight evenly? I have an industrial design background, so I'm very end user focused.
Elizabeth: [00:15:37] That's why because they don't feel like you're in big heels.
Casey: [00:15:41] It's intentional. So that's awesome to hear.
Elizabeth: [00:15:44] That is really cool. Ok, we've got to talk about the price, too, because they're not cheap crushers. I've been trying to explain this to people.
Casey: [00:15:52] I'm still trying to explain it to people.
Elizabeth: [00:15:56] People will say, someone was over here last week who said, it's so crazy when vegan boots are more expensive than leather ones.
Casey: [00:15:59] Yeah.
Elizabeth: [00:16:01] I was like, “No, it's not.”
Casey: [00:16:02] Yeah, I can literally tell you why they should or shouldn’t be.
Elizabeth: [00:16:04] So can we talk about it?
Casey: [00:16:05] Yeah, when I first launched my vegan styles, I priced them the same. So the price difference is if you're going to look at like a square meter of, you know, that's the way I would measure or and that's how I order my material. So I'm going to make my omatseye boots for the leather version that I used to make. If you're looking at a one to one comparison, a square meter of leather versus a square meter of Apple leather, the material itself is at least 15 percent more expensive for the leather.
Elizabeth: [00:16:39] For the leather leather. Ok.
Casey: [00:16:40] So the Apple Leather is less expensive and you're looking at a one to one comparison on square meters.
Elizabeth: [00:16:42] Ok.
Casey: [00:16:43] But where you are investing more is the time and the development costs. So it's pretty comparable except for the leathers themselves. But we need an additional round of prototyping, so it could take me an extra few weeks. It could take me an extra few months to develop an Apple leather style. Then you're talking about investing in your labor and your fair trade and making sure that your workers are being paid fairly whilst they're doing more work to get the final product ready. So the development costs are higher with vegan goods specifically for Apple leather goods because my factories never worked with a lot of these components before. So there's a lot of trial and error. So those are things I continually have to take into consideration where if the boot is made in a high end Italian factory, they're charging me the same amount. It's not like I'm pulling wool over someone's eyes or I guess, wool wouldn’t be a vegan material. I'm not pulling the spider silk over anyone's eyes here.
Elizabeth: [00:17:31] When I first discovered you, you had both vegan and leather, animal leather and apple leather, and I was like, “Wow, this is crazy because they're the same.” I have never seen anyone else like that who had the exact same boots in both. That's when I first ordered.
Casey: [00:17:50] That's awesome.
Elizabeth: [00:17:51] The Apple leather boots. But then I noticed like, I would just check in, when you went straight vegan and I was like, “Oh, this is awesome. What happened? I have to find out.”
Casey: [00:17:59] Absolutely.
Elizabeth: [00:18:01] So did you get a lot of pushback because I'm sure your customers are kind of like, you have a loyal fan base.
Casey: [00:18:04] I would say I got no customer pushback.
Elizabeth: [00:18:10] Wow.
Casey: [00:18:11] We were really well received, like by I mean, I guess I did have more vegan clientele or people waiting for vegan products that I wasn't aware of.
Elizabeth: [00:18:17] I'm telling you like because I searched high and low. It's still a tough market in terms of finding quality that is comfortable. That looks great, especially in the U.S.. So I'm like, “that's why they're selling out so much, because everyone's finding out about them.” Well, I want everyone to find out. I want everyone to wear them.
Casey: [00:18:39] Exactly. I'm working on scaling. So that way we can have more in stock and let more people know about us. But I think that design is really something. That is kind of my, you know, I talk about sustainability and design, probably equally or at least I think about them equally when I'm creating a product. I'm really excited to put out my new website that we're launching with all the new assets and the new silver mossy boot.
Elizabeth: [00:19:06] Yeah.
Casey: [00:19:07] Because so much of what I do is like, my current website now is really structured around my sneakers and it's the first apple coconut sneaker, right. So we worked with apple leather and coconut husks, and it just lended itself to imagery like when in doubt, there's probably an apple in my images, right? People are like, I'm going to talk about Apple Leather, that's going to be the soapbox I die on and that's signed me up. Like, I'm happy to do it, but it takes a lot of education and explaining. So I use a lot of my imagery and I'm actually really excited. For the first time, I'm launching a site and there are no plants anywhere.
Elizabeth: [00:19:38] Oh, so you're just launching it as boots.
Casey: [00:19:40] It's just an image of boots. Then it says, vegan and plant based footwear made out of Italy. But I'm like, I don't need to beat anyone over the head with the fact that we're apple, coconut, corn and wheat and all of the amazing plant based materials we use. First and foremost, we are a luxury footwear brand, and I think that's how you get people interested in trying new vegan materials, the white boots that you have. Yes, it has been my best selling style. The white boots and my sneakers do really well, and they're all Apple Leather. Apple is my predominant vegan material I work with, but it's the story around it and it's the color. So like having a fashion color like white or now silver has crossover appeal. When you talk to the vegan community, it's people who know exactly why they should or shouldn't purchase something, right? But being able to reach people through design, I want to be the brand, why couldn't someone test veganism through fashion before they start it with their diet? That's kind of my story.
Elizabeth: [00:20:37] We do this 30 day vegan challenge in October. You can do it any time, but we yeah, we push it in October, and a lot of people do it. One person said to me, I saw her at an event, and she was like, “Oh my gosh, I have a leather bag with me and I'm on the vegan challenge.” Because it's non vegans that pretty much do it.
Casey: [00:20:58] Absolutely. Because, yeah, they're already doing it.
Elizabeth: [00:20:59] Yeah, and she was like, “I'm so embarrassed. I have a leather bag,” and I was like, “I'm so amazed that you actually connected the fashion to what you're doing,” because it's just people like, it's hard enough when people are trying vegan. Yeah, they don't even think they're right, I mean, that's like step two and three.
Casey: [00:21:20] Absolutely. But it could be step one. It doesn't necessarily have to be.
Elizabeth: [00:21:23] But it should be an option.
Casey: [00:21:23] Absolutely. Honestly, I did a vegan challenge in January of this past year, and that was a huge catalyst in getting me to make some bigger decisions sooner in the brand.
Elizabeth: [00:21:35] Like how so what happened?
Casey: [00:21:36] I have a ton of food allergies and I'm really hard to feed. So it's really difficult for me to selectively remove things from my diet and because I was home for, as we all were for 2020 in January of 2021, I was like, “I'm going to finally do a vegan challenge and I'm not at a restaurant.” I don't have to tell someone my laundry list of food allergies. Then on top of that, it's like I can just cook for myself for a whole month. I'm solely responsible for feeding myself. There's never been a better time to really like, dive deeper into this because I've always kind of come from an environmentalism first standpoint, and the more I spend time in the vegan space, the more I'm opened up to like every facet where I'm like, There's so many reasons to be vegan, vegan for the planet versus vegan for the animals. I straddle all of these spheres, right? As I hope very many people do.
Elizabeth: [00:22:30] Yeah.
Casey: [00:22:32] But for me, it started with vegan for the environment where I was already working with these plant based vegan leathers and wanting to make sure I can lessen my environmental impact through my shoe production. So I was like, “Well, why don't I try to reduce the amount of meat and dairy that I consume?” Then through that process, I was like, “Well, why am I consuming any meat or dairy? And why am I producing anything with leather?” It just kind of brought me down this very positive rabbit hole that was like, “Well, what do I love about this? And what's so cool about the food space right now? And like the plant based food innovations, is that like, it's not restrictive.” Instead I find it incredibly exploratory.
Elizabeth: [00:23:12] That's what I keep saying. It's literally you, It's like it's about abundance, it's like, there's just more than you can possibly fathom. So it's exciting. It's super exciting.
Casey: [00:23:22] So I was cooking and I think it's really daunting if you're like, “OK, all of a sudden, I'm going to change my lifestyle.” I was like, well, eating a plant based diet, eating like a predominantly vegetable and fruit based diet. Plus some of these new, fantastic new seafood options or, faux seafood, Like, I think it's called Pho Sophie's Kitchen, I was testing out like the Sophie's kitchen crab cakes and the smoked salmon, which they're all so new. And it just reminded me so much of, like all of the plant based leathers and materials that are coming out and just having new ways to cook. When I was feeding myself, it was like, Oh, I think it just clicked for me, this is the same thing that I'm doing in production, and it's what excites me the most. I love being able to source new materials and being able to talk about Apple Leather and constantly finding coconut husks to use or what the material I use for my sneaker soles, which is like a tree sap that comes from the specific tree.
Elizabeth: [00:24:27] Wow, how does that happen?
Casey: [00:24:29] It's kind of like a natural rubber, but you essentially tap this. It's called the Havea tree and we tap the tree for the sap, and then the sap gets cured and bam that makes your sole. It's crazy, but like I am thinking about my plant based, like the components of a shoe from top to bottom right. I talk a lot about Apple Leather because it's the one that we see and connect with. Most people understand Apple's. It's like the biggest of the components. But like everything from the linings and interiors, there are so many innovations happening and it's really exciting as a designer. So kind of seeing the parallels between the food space and the fashion material space was like, Oh, this is the opposite of restrictive. It's like now we can design and now we can eat and cook and create new things in a new way. To me, that is entirely what I stand for, right? It's like innovation and pushing boundaries and using technology and newness to further the conversation and minimize impact at the same time. I just feel like I'm finding my people and my world, and it's always been here. I was just a little late to the game, right?
Elizabeth: [00:25:34] Not really in the big picture.
Casey: [00:25:36] Well, yeah, I was early to the sustainability game, but late to the vegan game, right?
Elizabeth: [00:25:41] Right. But you're here, but you're awesome, and I'm so glad you exist. Seriously, thank you so much for this. Thank you so much for making these boots and changing the world.
Casey: [00:25:52] Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Elizabeth: [00:26:03] To learn more about Casey and about Sylven New York. Go to our website, Species' Unite.com. We will have links to everything. We're on Facebook and Instagram, @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare minute and you could do us a favor, we would greatly appreciate it if you would subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find the show. If you'd like to support the podcast and become a member of Species Unite, go to our website Species Unite and click Become a member. I'd like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Caitlin Pierce, Amy Jones, Paul Healy, Santana Pokey, Bethany Jones and Anna Conner, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening. Have a wonderful day!
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